I had so much fun I forgot to leave.
Hilary
I have been involved in Girlguiding since I was as girl. Had so much fun, forgot to leave so that means I’ve been here involved in guiding in North Tyneside for over 50 years. So, I do remember having Trefoil House acquired and I can remember a time before that and probably now I am one of the few members that has been here the whole time. I had a lot of roles within Girlguiding, locally and nationally but within North Tyneside I have been an advisor for various things such as the outdoors and international and an Assistant County Commissioner and probably most importantly I think, throughout that time I have been working with girls as a Ranger Leader. That’s the group of girls between 14 and 18 currently and the actual girl group I work with is in Monkseaton.
Jean
I became involved in Guiding in the mid 1980s just as a helper and then I took over a unit for a while. I stopped being a Guider, it must have been in the 90s and then for about 4 years in the early 90s I was asked to be arts advisor for North Tyneside and I used to hold craft sessions in Trefoil House. There was a shop that I took over from the previous arts advisor, Margaret Bell, which had card and various other craft items that Guiders might need for sessions they might do with the Brownies or Guides. I sold those on a Tuesday night it was twice a month and I’m now just one of the Trefoil Guild Members. Retired Guiders meet once a month in Trefoil House and we have people to talk, and we go on trips.
Hilary
Trefoil House, Howard Street
So currently, Trefoil House is our county headquarters and it’s sort of the focus for organising activities for the membership. The county, I refer to is Tynemouth, Whitley Bay, Wallsend, Benton, Monkseaton and usually is around about 2,000 people although obviously we have been affected by covid. So as a base this house can be used for an office and we employ an office worker now to help to look after the county in an administrative sense. One of her roles is that we have another property out in the country, so she takes bookings for that. We also still have the shop that Jean started except its expanded now into a Guide shop and is open three times a week and provides all the resources that leaders would need. Girlguiding now publishes a huge amount of resources that people buy and uniforms and badges. Badges are very popular, in my view a slightly controversial topic but that’s, because some people love them and some people don’t. So, it’s good to have a focus in a county. We’re lucky in the sense of being geographically small and people who come in here and use that shop, use the office facilities but as well as that we’ve got two main training rooms. We’ve got the small main training room which is a sort of more comfortable lounge really and we’ve extended out the back of the building from its original format to take in the yard and provide a bigger training base. So, it’s really important that all of our leaders have access to good training. Now obviously since covid a lot of that has gone on-line and the building might be being used less now than it was in the past and we have to see how that works out in the future.
The background was that north of the Tyne there was one county, Northumberland. It was split then into three counties because it was very big geographically obviously from Berwick all of Tyneside right out to the west and all of the population tend to be along the river, so it was decided to take that one big county and split it into three, Newcastle, North Tyneside and Northumberland which is how it remains now.
Now when they split it, they obviously had to split the interests and assets of the old Northumberland County. The money that came from that split, our county commissioner at the time was a fairly astute banker lady who looked after the money very well and they decided that they would invest that money in two ways. One was to have an in-town base, this one, Trefoil House or 31 Howard Street as it was called when we bought it and still is its postal address. And then we’d also used some of the money to invest out of our geographical county but in the countryside, so girls had access to residentials. We’ve got a residential centre and we’ve got this centre here and over the years we’ve obviously been able to invest in it because I do, obviously remember it when we got it and it was still in the format that we bought it in when Jean came into this. It was a terrace house with a downstairs, a quite difficult room to work in because it was essentially a lounge and dining room that had been knocked into one room with little bits of wall sticking out and things, but even then, it was used a lot for training.
Jean
The kitchen was very basic as well. It was probably 1950s 60s sink and a draining board and, what did we use to heat the water, was there a boiler?
Hilary
Actually, the kitchen, yes, I guess it was at the back wasn’t it, probably under your old arts room. So, it would be that sort of size and it would be an off shoot off the back, and it was probably single brick or something it was probably cold and damp I would guess. It’s been relocated, the whole thing downstairs has been realigned to make a better more modern business type property with a designated shop room which you didn’t really have that luxury, nice kitchen, nice training area, a decent office up here.
Jean
I had the shop and it obviously had been the little bedroom of the house and there was a built-in cupboard with shelves and it was ideal for putting all my stuff that I was selling, card and wobbly eyes and pom-poms.
Hilary
The house was very cold, I remember that.
Jean
It was cold. When I did the craft sessions, we called it Coffee and Craft. We provided drinks for people because they were there for about 2 hours in the evening and I had some helpers and while I was helping people to do the various crafts that I was showing them they would be doing the drinks. I am trying to think how many I did. We definitely did a Christmas craft which would be round about October time, so they had time to work out if they wanted to use it. I definitely did an Easter craft and I must have done one more at least. I had helpers, each of the divisions had an arts person. We had meetings and decided shall we do a craft session involving trying to make musical instruments out of bits of cardboard and things like that and then trying to get the bits together to show the Guiders that came in how they could do that in the Brownies. It was mainly Brownies, not so many Guiding came, a lot of Brownie leaders came for ideas for the units.
[InterviewerJust to continue talking about the acquisition; do you have any idea why Howard Street and even why North Shields in particular was chosen?]
Hilary
County Commissioner Ms D Postle
Trefoil House Opening Ceremony 1973
I think it’s probably North Shields because as a communications hub it was reasonably central and I don’t think property would have been desperately expensive. Somewhere or other in the office, I can remember looking at the price, it was obviously ridiculous by todays standard but what a good investment. So, I think it was mostly, as many things are when you buy property, happen chance that this came on the market it was in a reasonably good position. Miss Postle who was the county commissioner, her executive at the time obviously put together buying this and I believe, either on this one or the other place they bought, which was at Kirkwhelpington, they actually took a mortgage which must have been quite a big step. It was very forward looking our county, because we are not big in numbers, but we’ve had some very wise financial leaders. So, I think that was probably the main driver, why not Howard Street rather than let’s go and look in Howard Street, it could have been any of the terraces around here.
I don’t think it changed for years really. Until the last year or two, my perception always was of a business street with a few homes still and there still are a couple of houses they’re homes. A lot of solicitor’s offices and things like that. But from our point of view one of the great benefits I think, until recently you could always park at the door in the evening and it’s well-lit so even women coming alone, coming in and out, we’ve always felt safe. There was a point in time when we were looking very, very seriously at do we improve or do we move. The people on the main committee at that time looked at a few other properties and they actually concluded in the end that this is a good place to be. It’s near the metro, it’s near the buses, it’s well-lit.
Jean
It was always easy to park, because running the shop a lot of the stock came to our house and of course, I had to transport it here. I had a key at the time, and I used to come in the afternoons sometimes to get it up into the shop.
Hilary
And it’s still a place actually that you feel safe in it in the daytime if you come on your own to do something it still feels safe. The office worker is technically a lone worker and the office workers have never felt unsafe because during the day there are people around in offices that are open. So, it’s a very good safe place for us to be. It looks very nice, but it hasn’t significantly changed my view of the place. Apart from the parking dilemma which means we have done some work at the back door to make it so we can access more on the level from the back and if people want to park there, they can.
Viki
I have just seen a document from the 50’s saying that there’s a North Shields Trefoil Guild. Obviously, they wouldn’t have met in this building, because we didn’t have the building.
Hilary
There’s Trefoil Guild in Tynemouth, in Whitley Bay, in Benton, I would think the North Shields Trefoil Guild would have existed since the 50s and it’s moved in here, I don’t know when. We would have encouraged people to use the building, we’ve got, it’s free and it’s heated, why not use it?
Jean
The other Trefoil Guilds, I think they meet in the afternoon, I think we are the only one that meets in the evening and I think it’s just a tradition. We’ve just got so used to it being in the evening and we still have people who are working during the day.
Hilary
You don’t have to be inactive to be a Trefoil member. Technically they are two different organisations although people talk about them as the same. They’re both within Girlguiding but the Trefoil Guild is a separate organisation so there’s absolutely nothing to say that, you can’t be a leader and a Trefoil member. I’m not sure that was always the case. There was a point where you either left totally and you became the other but now you can be a leader and a Trefoil member.
Jean
While the work was going on we met for a while in the church at the top there [St Columba’s]. I can’t remember how many meetings we had there, but we definitely had a meeting in a little side room, because obviously we couldn’t come into the building while it was being renovated.
Hilary
That’s a good few years back now isn’t it that we changed. Do you ever remember there not being a room at the back?
Viki
Always been the big room when I joined in 2009.
Hilary
So, we’ve had the room at least 15 years. There’s been lots of material things like making it nice and warm and clean. It used to smell quite damp I recall when you came in. So, obviously over the years there’s been those sorts of nicely carpeted, nicely furnished, useable, somewhere friendly to come. But the layout downstairs is the most significant change because we’ve got this training room at the back which actually can take 30 people. Then the kitchen has moved somewhere else into the middle of the building and is modern and then we’ve got the shop which is a significant thing. We’ve also got underneath here which I had great ambitions for but doesn’t work out, it has got a cellar and it had a very narrow little corridor along into a little room which I’d hoped to turn into a camp store until I found out how wet it was because we are on the line of the stream along Howard Street which you may or may not have picked up.
The size of the room in the basement is approximately the size of the shop room so there’s a significant little room and a long narrow corridor towards it. We have had some work done over the years to try and cure that which it has, on the whole, the house doesn’t get damp now.
Jean
I’ve heard that it was a doctor’s surgery a while ago. A lot of these stories you know, people aren’t here now to talk about them.
Hilary
It’s very sad when you realise you’ve become the old person whose still alive to tell the tale.
[InterviewerI wanted to ask you Hilary, about Guiding in general. So, your long association with Guiding, I wonder if it’s possible to compare Guiding now to when you first started.]
Hilary
I think focussing in on the main things what hasn’t changed is the ethos of Guiding is still the same. It’s still a safe place for girls and young women. It’s a single sex organisation that’s proud to be that because that’s the way we feel is the best for people to develop. As an aside, I feel very sorry in Scouting, the matching half, there is nowhere similar for boys, there’s not a safe boy only space they have to have girls there, we have maintained that. So, the ethos of Guiding, the promise, the law, the fact that we are for girls and young women, helping develop their independence and their skills and their interests and our impact actually nationally is massive. If you get a group of women in a room and ask them to put their hand up who was in the Brownies or the Guides a massive number, a huge percentage will have had some impact. So as far as I’m concerned if you only did a year and it helped them to become confident to do something, that’s worth it, you don’t have to be as extreme as me and do it for years and years.
But at the same time, I wouldn’t been who I am today, and I wouldn’t have had the career I’ve had if it hadn’t been for the leaders in the 70s and 60s you know helping me to develop. So, I think there’s those kinds of things that are hidden in a sense because the obvious things that are changed are you know, you’ll see on the pictures at the opening how very formal the uniform was. When I was first a leader, I went out to my Guide meeting smart as anything in a suit and shirt and a little tie on, a hat you know, stupid really to do daft games. But we were smart, and the girls were smart we did inspections of their uniform. Now superficially you would look at people now and it’s very much more relaxed, our uniform options are more relaxed. We’ve got hoodies, we’ve got polo shirts. There is a smart option, I can wheel out a suit if I have to, but you know, for regular girl meetings then we are dressed appropriately and that’s what the public see I think and they might say, “Oh, they’re not as smart as they used to be”. No, we’re not but actually we’re practical. So, I think the way we look is something that’s changed. I’m sure if we were to sit down and list what we did and what we do there’s obviously differences because it’s 2023 and quite rightly we do modern things for modern girls and that’s what keeps them interested.
So, if you look at the programme handbooks for the 70s and 80s and what’s in there, Baden Powell would have recognised all that. If you look now, there’s still, all the traditional stuff is there, we value all that traditional stuff which people would see as like fire lighting and camping and I don’t know, rubbing two sticks together to make fire, but on top of that we do a whole load of other stuff which is much more to do with IT, to do with wellbeing, mental health issues, political things. So, I think we’ve moved really well with the times. Not everybody will agree with me on this and some of my generation might be seen to be the people that find that hardest, I’m not one of those people, because I think you’ve got to be appropriate to the time you live in. So, there is a huge difference there visually in what we do but you know at the end what it produces is girls who are confident, can speak out, mindful of their environment and all the things that you would like the girls and women of today to be really aware of.
If I took you into the shop downstairs and I show you the badges you’d be gobsmacked really because they have names and I’m trying to think of some now. Fortunately, we’ve got the badge queen here, I’m a well-known badge hater. But there’s things like, names like Mixology.
Viki
Guides have Mixology. We’ve got an Natural Remedies now, I’ve just had a Guide do a Vlogging badge for a Gold Award, Rangers have Voting.
Hilary
We have Event Planning as well don’t we.
Viki
Event Planning. We have, we still have Cooking but it’s a lot more about healthy menus and how to budget, like to prep them more for Uni and living by themselves for the first time.
Hilary
And we still have camping and outdoor badges, I think we’ve been very clever at blending the old and the new. Girls do a lot of Interest badges and then they do Skill Builder badges, so we do the programmes based on unit meeting activities. I don’t think we’ll ever give up on badges. And you will remember of course, when you were a Brownie you made a promise, the promise badge. They all still make a promise and remake it when they become a Guide, so the promise badge is still key. Our branding’s had a revamp this year actually again, just keeping it moving with the times.
They tried to get rid of a lot of arts and crafts but it doesn’t work because actually when it comes down to it there’s a lot of leaders have a lot of skills and love doing arts and crafts and actually there’s nothing makes the girls in the unit I work with happier than an evening of crafting and I mean these are bright intellectually able girls, they’re going to university, they’re doing their GCSEs and A Levels but they love doing crafts. So, I don’t think we should deny that. It’s by demand, on demand.
Viki
If the girls want to do it, we’ll do it.
I’ve got sleep over pictures because we used this for sleepovers in my unit.
Hilary
Oh yes, we do use it for sleep overs I’ve had a few nights here. The girls sleep on the floor in the back-room downstairs and the leaders can sleep up here.
Viki
And when you say sleep, if it’s Rangers, sleep, if it’s Guides, no.
Hilary
The Rangers usually go to sleep by about 1 o’ clock and then you have to drag them out of bed with the smell of a bacon butty in the morning.
Viki
If it’s the Guides you’re normally sat there at 3am doing the accounts going, “Shut up, for God’s sake,” because they think you can’t hear them whispering in this building.
Hilary
The thing to do really, I find if we’ve had a sleep over is we have a midnight movie where the spirit is willing to watch it, the body gives up. As I say in the morning with the Rangers, who are 14 plus, they think I’m ever so kind because I go round with a bacon sandwich and they can have it in bed and they go, “That’s really kind.” No, it’s the only way to make you wake up isn’t it. If I said, “Get up and make one,” you would get, “Oh no I’ll not bother.” But yes, it gives us an in-town versatility really, we’ve got this that people can use for an evening and overnight. Guides come in and have weekends here, might do a bit cooking and you usually find we do crafts as well in the back room.
Viki
Yes, we’ve used it as a base for international get to know each other activities and events, we were doing that last April before we went away. Where they went off and use this as their base, but it was great because as Hilary said You’ve got public transport and access to stuff and it’s pretty easy for them to find.
Hilary
Actually, now that we’ve got this and perhaps we can’t remember life before it, I can’t particularly think of a better place to be based for the county it’s very useful.
We have used it in the past maybe for say, the Danish group travelling through on their way to somewhere, come in on the boat and needed an overnight. Not often and not regularly, but if people have contacted us and said can you find somewhere for us to stay, we’ve got a group of 20 girls going to …., then it’s available. It’s difficult now to think of some of the things, because over the years we’ve done so many things really. We’ve got the plaque there that says we’ve got the Freedom of North Tyneside. We got Freedom of the Borough for the work we’ve done.
Viki
2023, this year, is the 50th anniversary of the county. We have been talking about the fact our uniforms are due to change again in 2026 with the new branding, Guiding uniforms is actually a great social look at women’s clothing for the past 110 years. Because if you look at what we had to wear to be acceptable in 1910 when we started to what we are now wearing it’s a very practical change.
Hilary
Yes, you can follow my Guiding career by the different uniforms I’m wearing. I’ve got a drawer full of uniforms of various vintage and some of it’s in this archive material here as well. We bring the girls in sometimes to have dressy-up sessions with old uniforms on. You should just go to 1970-1980 and the uniform we were wearing then. In 1990 we had a new uniform designed by Jeff Banks and that was a really, I mean goodness people were shocked. That was a really big step because I can see it now with the pale blue jumper there that your leaders would have in the Brownies probably with the white stripe round and that’s when polo shirts came in and we, goodness me, we were so dressed up weren’t we, before that. I was going out to Guides in my kind of you know, smart court shoes and a skirt suit.
Viki
We had the Guides dress up on holiday and we were showing them a camp dress that someone brought from their private collection and I was explaining that you’d wear this for Guides and Rangers because it was the same blue but your mam would maybe buy it when it was down here when you were 10 and you’d wear it until you were 18 and it was up here.
Hilary
That was true of Brownie uniforms wasn’t it, by the time Guides got to 10 and 11 they usually had to wear something under their dress because it had become a long top.
Viki
We see that now even with the Guide uniform, you get them at 10 and it’s down here by the time they’re ready for Rangers they are t-shirts.
Hilary
Brownie uniform from 1980s
One of the good things about Brownies is that the Brownie uniform has basically been brown. So, you can put a Brownie in the street or in a shopping mall, most people I would venture to suggest could spot a Brownie. Most people actually can spot a Rainbow now because they’re lovely in their little cute red track suits and things. The Guide uniform has so radically changed, and I don’t think it’s been communicated as strongly. It doesn’t have as strong an image as Scouting so unless people have got a Guide in the family, they possibly don’t recognise it. By the time you get to working with the Ranger age, you would never know. Now the length of time it seems between when we change from one thing to another has collapsed a bit but the Brownie branding you know people still recognise a Brownie in the street.
Viki
You have the people who recognise them as the brown dress ones or the yellow top people, that’s very distinctive.
Hilary, Jean and Viki were interviewed as part of the North Shields Heritage Action Zone Project.